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Re: [grouper-dev] USDU delete subjects after unresolvable for X days

Chronological Thread 
  • From: "Gettes, Michael" <>
  • To: Chris Hyzer <>
  • Cc: "Black, Carey M." <>, "" <>
  • Subject: Re: [grouper-dev] USDU delete subjects after unresolvable for X days
  • Date: Wed, 6 Feb 2019 23:08:10 +0000

Very nice! I have just re-constructed my entire environment (I do this
periodically) and I am heading home. I hope to test out the latest TIER
build this evening.


> On Feb 6, 2019, at 4:26 PM, Hyzer, Chris <> wrote:
> I updated the wiki so you can have settings per source too... we have a
> solution for individual deprovisioning, we need something for mass
> deprovisioning... we should consider USDU when we tackle that
> Thanks
> Chris
> -----Original Message-----
> From: <>
> On Behalf Of Black, Carey M.
> Sent: Wednesday, February 06, 2019 4:05 PM
> To: Gettes, Michael <>
> Cc:
> Subject: RE: [grouper-dev] USDU delete subjects after unresolvable for X
> days
> Michael,
> My concern is if the subject it removed before the membership are
> _processed_ by the "deprovisioner".
> Things in Grouper are not instantaneous. ( More like "short time
> bounded batches". And there are different queues and processes that are not
> guaranteed to be serialized nor synchronized. )
> If the USDU removes the memberships AND deletes the subject (in a single
> pass), the likely hood of the deprovisioners would have ANY data about the
> subject is just about zero. ( All the data would need to be "on the
> Membership" being removed, and that still depends on Attribute point in
> time data sources too. )
> However, If the deprovisioning process needs Subject data ( that might be
> cached in Grouper attributes on the subject ) to deprovision then it is
> likely not able to do what it needs to do.
> However, if the process is that the USDU removes the memberships and waits
> to delete the subject until all of those memberships have been processed by
> all provisioners ( AKA: change log consumers) before the subject is deleted
> in grouper, then the local Grouper data integrity can sustain the Grouper
> based processes.
> So to me, the USDU should look like a multi-phase process (with a time
> delay/verification check before the next phase for that subject) to not
> break the deprovisioning processes.
> I don't think Wiki's are a good space to make a feature request. (
> That what things like Jira are for. :) )
> And I am trying to talk through the details before a formal
> request/altered request is made. Mostly because I am very open to the
> reality that I may not be seeing something that others might. :)
> ( I like discussing details to build full plans. :) )
> --
> Carey Matthew
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Gettes, Michael <>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 6, 2019 3:15 PM
> To: Black, Carey M. <>
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: USDU delete subjects after unresolvable for X days
> USDU is supposed to remove the subject from all groups it is a member of as
> part of it’s processing. So I think 2 is a non-issue. Different schedules
> for different subject sources is certainly an interesting point and one I
> hadn’t thought of. As I hope Chris would agree - you should definitely add
> this to the wiki page so it gets taken into account.
> /mrg
>> On Feb 6, 2019, at 12:59 PM, Black, Carey M. <> wrote:
>> Michael,
>> RE:
>> While I understand the idea of this request, there might be some
>> unintended consequences if other things are not considered.
>> 1) some subject sources might need to be treated differently than others.
>> Maybe different timelines (remove after N days),
>> Maybe different logic based on that source. ( some sources may never
>> need cleaned., or only yearly? )
>> Some might expect to see lots of subject changes, others might expect
>> very view. ( so a single "failsafe" might be high for some and low for
>> others.)
>> 2) if an USDU subject is still "provisioned" to some downstream system
>> then there may be other problems caused by removing the Subject from the
>> downstream system after the USDU scrubs the subject from grouper.
>> Maybe there needs to be a step that identifies the unresolvable
>> subject that triggers downstream provision/de-provision processes before
>> the subject is removed.
>> What are your thoughts along those lines?
>> --
>> Carey Matthew

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