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Re: multicast: Re: NANOG 25 multicast loss?


Chronological Thread 
  • From: Joel Jaeggli <>
  • To: Marshall Eubanks <>
  • Cc: Hans Kuhn <>, "Lucy E. Lynch" <>, Bill Owens <>, <>, <>
  • Subject: Re: multicast: Re: NANOG 25 multicast loss?
  • Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 18:17:04 -0700 (PDT)
that's not entirely surprising...

the router that 205.167.77.37 sits behind on the oregon-ix gets transit
routes from verio. the UO only peers with verio...

205.167.77.37 = (my house linux box)
128.223.214.27 = (my desktop machine at work)

On Wed, 12 Jun 2002, Marshall Eubanks wrote:

> On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:35:30 -0700 (PDT)
> Hans Kuhn
> <>
> wrote:
> > Marshall,
> >
>
> Here is a weird one :
>
> Packet loss from multicasts to twin.uoregon.edu
> are a lot lower than packet loss from 205.167.77.37, also at
> UOregon. I cannot do mtraces to there, but the mtraces
> make it look like the routing is in fact different :
>
> Marshall
>
> multicasttech-1>trace 205.167.77.37
>
> Type escape sequence to abort.
> Tracing the route to 205.167.77.37
>
> 1 216.177.55.5 4 msec 4 msec 0 msec
> 2 208.1.115.206 [AS 1239] 0 msec 0 msec 0 msec
> 3 63.173.24.165 [AS 1239] 4 msec 4 msec 0 msec
> 4 sl-bb20-rly-14-2.sprintlink.net (144.232.19.121) [AS 1239] 4 msec 4
> msec 4
> msec
> 5 sl-bb25-rly-9-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.14.126) [AS 1239] 4 msec 8 msec
> 4
> msec
> 6 sl-st20-ash-15-3.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.5) [AS 1239] 4 msec 8 msec 4
> msec
> 7 p4-0-0-0.r01.asbnva01.us.bb.verio.net (129.250.9.1) [AS 2914] 4 msec 8
> msec
> 4 msec
> 8 p16-3-0-0.r00.stngva01.us.bb.verio.net (129.250.2.74) [AS 2914] 4 msec 8
> msec 4 msec
> 9 p16-0-0-0.r02.stngva01.us.bb.verio.net (129.250.5.15) [AS 2914] 8 msec 8
> msec 8 msec
> 10 p16-0-0-0.r01.chcgil01.us.bb.verio.net (129.250.5.102) [AS 2914] 32
> msec 28
> msec 32 msec
> 11 p16-5-0-0.r02.chcgil01.us.bb.verio.net (129.250.2.221) [AS 2914] 28
> msec 28
> msec 28 msec
> 12 p16-3-0-0.r00.chcgil06.us.bb.verio.net (129.250.5.114) [AS 2914] 28
> msec 28
> msec 32 msec
> 13 p16-0-1-1.r21.sttlwa01.us.bb.verio.net (129.250.2.6) [AS 2914] 68 msec
> 68
> msec 80 msec
> 14 p16-0-0-0.r04.sttlwa01.us.bb.verio.net (129.250.2.237) [AS 2914] 68
> msec 68
> msec 68 msec
> 15 p4-1-2-0.r01.ptldor01.us.bb.verio.net (129.250.3.38) [AS 2914] 68 msec
> 72
> msec 72 msec
> 16 ge-0-0-0.r01.ptldor01.us.ra.verio.net (129.250.30.148) [AS 2914] 72
> msec 72
> msec 72 msec
> 17 d3-6-1-0.a01.eugnor01.us.ra.verio.net (129.250.55.114) [AS 2914] 72
> msec 80
> msec 76 msec
> 18 orix.maoz.com (198.32.162.254) [AS 3582] 76 msec 76 msec 76 msec
> 19 lucy-far.maoz.com (205.167.76.190) [AS 10876] 80 msec 88 msec 88 msec
> 20 205.167.77.37 [AS 10876] 88 msec 132 msec 84 msec
> multicasttech-1>trace twin.uoregon.edu
> Translating "twin.uoregon.edu"...domain server (63.105.122.137) [OK]
>
> Type escape sequence to abort.
> Tracing the route to twin.uoregon.edu (128.223.214.27)
>
> 1 216.177.55.5 4 msec 4 msec 0 msec
> 2 208.1.115.206 [AS 1239] 0 msec 0 msec 4 msec
> 3 63.173.24.173 [AS 1239] 0 msec 0 msec 0 msec
> 4 sl-bb22-rly-15-2.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.37) [AS 1239] 4 msec 4 msec
> 4
> msec
> 5 204.255.169.129 [AS 701] 4 msec 4 msec 4 msec
> 6 0.so-1-0-0.XL1.DCA6.ALTER.NET (152.63.41.230) [AS 701] 4 msec 4 msec 4
> msec
> 7 0.so-0-0-0.TL1.DCA6.ALTER.NET (152.63.38.69) [AS 701] 4 msec 4 msec 8
> msec
> 8 0.so-7-0-0.TL1.POR3.ALTER.NET (152.63.32.41) [AS 701] 88 msec 92 msec 92
> msec
> 9 0.so-0-0-0.XL1.POR3.ALTER.NET (152.63.107.146) [AS 701] 92 msec 92 msec
> 92
> msec
> 10 0.so-7-0-0.XR1.POR3.ALTER.NET (152.63.107.105) [AS 701] 88 msec 92 msec
> 88
> msec
> 11 191.ATM7-0.GW2.POR3.ALTER.NET (152.63.104.93) [AS 701] 88 msec 88 msec
> 88
> msec
> 12 nero-gw.customer.alter.net (157.130.182.210) [AS 701] 88 msec 88 msec 88
> msec
> 13 ptld-core2-gw.nero.net (207.98.64.177) [AS 3701] 92 msec 92 msec 88 msec
> 14 eugn-core2-gw.nero.net (207.98.64.13) [AS 3701] 96 msec 104 msec 92 msec
> 15 eugn-car1-gw.nero.net (207.98.64.165) [AS 3701] 92 msec 92 msec 92 msec
> 16 uo1-gw.nero.net (207.98.64.34) [AS 3701] 96 msec 96 msec 96 msec
> 17 ge-1-1.uonet2-gw.uoregon.edu (128.223.2.102) [AS 3582] 92 msec 92 msec
> 92
> msec
> 18 twin.uoregon.edu (128.223.214.27) [AS 3582] 96 msec 100 msec 96 msec
> multicasttech-1>
>
>
> > We have a routing loop between two canet routers (nyc and
> > montreal). I've copied the ontario gigapop contact, Marcos
> > so he can see some of the receiver reports.
> >
> > Marcos,
> >
> > Is there a contact in canet that we can include? I didn't
> > see an obvious one on www.canet3.com.
> >
> > Hans
> >
> > --
> > Hans Kuhn, Academic User Services office (541) 346-1714
> > University of Oregon, 237 CC fax (541) 346-4397
> >
> > Key fingerprint = 1E BC 32 03 AC E9 82 6C 44 4A CD 63 BB 2D 51 89
> >
> > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> >
> > : On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 07:20:59 -0700 (PDT)
> > : "Lucy E. Lynch"
> > <>
> > wrote:
> > : > Marshall & Bill -
> > : >
> > :
> > : Looking at receiver reports :
> > :
> > : To Canaire (MPEG-1)
> > : There were 302 Separate Records Encountered
> > :
> > : Of these 0.993377 Per Cent Had Zero Loss
> > :
> > : Average packet loss fraction = 8.12552 per cent
> > : Maximum packet loss fraction = 16.7969 per cent
> > : RMS packet loss fraction = 3.04354 per cent
> > :
> > : To Here (H261)
> > :
> > : There were 733 Separate Records Encountered
> > :
> > : Of these 51.4325 Per Cent Had Zero Loss
> > :
> > : Average packet loss fraction = 5.96276 per cent
> > : Maximum packet loss fraction = 94.1406 per cent
> > : RMS packet loss fraction = 10.3069 per cent
> > :
> > : Marshall
> > :
> > :
> > : > This seems to be consistant with what I'm seeing (NY-CA bad,
> > : > abilene/west via chicago better). Thanks -
> > : >
> > : > Lucy E. Lynch Academic User Services
> > : > Computing Center University of Oregon
> > : >
> >
> > (541) 346-1774/Cell: 912-7998
> > : >
> > : > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Marshall Eubanks wrote:
> > : >
> > : > > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 06:50:01 -0700 (PDT)
> > : > > "Lucy E. Lynch"
> > <>
> > wrote:
> > : > > > Bill -
> > : > > >
> > : > > Lucy;
> > : > >
> > : > > Here is what I've got from here. Note I can mtrace to the H.261
> > but not
> > : > > to the MPEG-1 (?).
> > : > >
> > : > > Marshall
> > : > >
> > : > > multicasttech-1>show ip mbgp 192.35.169.6
> > : > > BGP routing table entry for 192.35.169.0/24, version 3234470
> > : > > Paths: (3 available, best #1)
> > : > > Advertised to non peer-group peers:
> > : > > 63.251.101.52
> > : > > 15076 1239 11537 6509 549 236
> > : > > 216.177.55.5 from 216.177.55.5 (216.177.32.254)
> > : > > Origin IGP, localpref 100, weight 500, valid, external,
> > best
> > : > > 1239 11537 6509 549 236
> > : > > 160.81.38.225 from 160.81.38.225 (144.228.242.54)
> > : > > Origin IGP, metric 117, localpref 100, valid, external
> > : > > 145 6509 549 236
> > : > > 166.61.8.89 from 166.61.8.89 (204.147.128.136)
> > : > > Origin IGP, localpref 100, valid, external
> > : > > Community: 9503719 426573835 426573924 426574373
> > : > > multicasttech-1>
> > : > >
> > : > >
> > : > > Group: 224.2.129.33, NANOG 25 (H.261)
> > : > > Source: 192.35.169.6 (?)
> > : > > Rate: 6 pps/63 kbps(1sec), 57 kbps(last 21 secs), 59
> > kbps(life
> > avg)
> > : > >
> > : > > multicasttech-1>mtrace
> > : > > Source address or name: 192.35.169.6
> > : > > Destination address or name: 63.105.122.133
> > : > > Group address or name: 224.2.129.33,
> > : > > Multicast request TTL [64]:
> > : > > Response address for mtrace:
> > : > > Type escape sequence to abort.
> > : > > Mtrace from 192.35.169.6 to 63.105.122.133 via RPF
> > : > > >From source (?) to destination (off-mct2.multicasttech.com)
> > : > > Querying full reverse path...
> > : > > 0 off-mct2.multicasttech.com (63.105.122.133)
> > : > > -1 off-mct2.multicasttech.com (63.105.122.133) PIM/MBGP
> > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -2 216.177.55.5 PIM/MBGP [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -3 208.1.115.206 [AS 1239] PIM [default]
> > : > > -4 63.173.24.173 [AS 1239] PIM/MBGP [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -5 sl-bb22-rly-15-2.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.37) [AS 1239]
> > PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -6 sl-bb23-rly-12-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.14.138) [AS 1239]
> > PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -7 sl-bb25-sj-5-3.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.57) [AS 1239]
> > PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -8 sl-bb21-stk-10-2.sprintlink.net (144.232.9.170) [AS 1239]
> > PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -9 sl-bb22-stk-15-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.4.242) [AS 1239]
> > PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -10 sl-w1-mae-1-0-0.sprintlink.net (144.232.8.1) [AS 1239]
> > PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -11 198.9.201.205 [AS 24] PIM/MBGP [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -12 198.32.8.73 [AS 11537] PIM/MBGP [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -13 dnvr-snva.abilene.ucaid.edu (198.32.8.2) [AS 11537] PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -14 kscy-dnvr.abilene.ucaid.edu (198.32.8.14) [AS 11537] PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -15 ipls-kscy.abilene.ucaid.edu (198.32.8.6) [AS 11537] PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -16 c3-chicor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.98) [AS 6509] PIM/MBGP
> > : > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -17 c3-torcor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.146) [AS 6509] PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -18 c3-ontgig01.canet3.net (205.189.32.209) [AS 6509] PIM/MBGP
> > : > > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -19 tor-gigapop.onet.on.ca (205.211.94.234) [AS 549] PIM/MBGP
> > : > [192.35.169.0/24]
> > : > > -20 206.248.63.2 PIM [192.35.169.0/25]
> > : > > -21 192.35.169.6
> > : > > multicasttech-1>
> > : > >
> > : > >
> > : > > Group: 224.2.184.125, NANOG 25 (MPEG-1)
> > : > > Source: 192.35.169.6 (?)
> > : > > Rate: 17 pps/176 kbps(1sec), 186 kbps(last 31 secs), 160
> > kbps(life
> > : > avg)
> > : > >
> > : > >
> > : > >
> > : > > multicasttech-1>trace 192.35.169.6
> > : > >
> > : > > Type escape sequence to abort.
> > : > > Tracing the route to 192.35.169.6
> > : > >
> > : > > 1 216.177.55.5 0 msec 4 msec 0 msec
> > : > > 2 208.1.115.206 [AS 1239] 4 msec 0 msec 4 msec
> > : > > 3 63.173.24.173 [AS 1239] 4 msec 0 msec 0 msec
> > : > > 4 sl-bb22-rly-15-2.sprintlink.net (144.232.20.37) [AS 1239] 4
> > msec
> > 4 msec
> > : > 4
> > : > > msec
> > : > > 5 POS1-2.BR4.DCA6.ALTER.NET (204.255.169.129) [AS 701] 4 msec 4
> > msec 4
> > : > msec
> > : > > 6 0.so-1-0-0.XL1.DCA6.ALTER.NET (152.63.41.230) [AS 701] 4
> > msec 4
> > msec 4
> > : > msec
> > : > > 7 0.so-0-0-0.TL1.DCA6.ALTER.NET (152.63.38.69) [AS 701] 4 msec
> > 4
> > msec 8
> > : > msec
> > : > > 8 0.so-7-0-0.TL1.TOR2.ALTER.NET (152.63.2.93) [AS 701] 24 msec
> > 20
> > msec 20
> > : > msec
> > : > > 9 POS1-0.XR1.TOR2.ALTER.NET (152.63.2.110) [AS 701] 20 msec 24
> > msec 20
> > : > msec
> > : > > 10 POS6-0.GW4.TOR2.ALTER.NET (152.63.131.137) [AS 701] 20 msec
> > 24
> > msec 20
> > : > msec
> > : > > 11 grouptel23-t-gw.customer.alter.net (157.130.159.254) [AS
> > 701] 32
> > msec
> > : > 32
> > : > > msec 36 msec
> > : > > 12 GE5-0.PEERA-TOROON.IP.GROUPTELECOM.NET (66.59.191.21) [AS
> > 6539]
> > 32 msec
> > : > 32
> > : > > msec 32 msec
> > : > > 13 ATM2-0.NANOG25.IP.GROUPTELECOM.NET (216.18.62.102) [AS 6539]
> > 36
> > msec 36
> > : > msec
> > : > > 36 msec
> > : > > 14 192.35.169.6 [AS 236] 36 msec 36 msec 32 msec
> > : > > multicasttech-1>mtrace
> > : > > Source address or name: 192.35.169.6
> > : > > Destination address or name: 63.105.122.133
> > : > > Group address or name: 224.2.184.125
> > : > > Multicast request TTL [64]:
> > : > > Response address for mtrace: 63.105.133.122
> > : > > Type escape sequence to abort.
> > : > > Mtrace from 192.35.169.6 to 63.105.122.133 via group
> > 224.2.184.125
> > : > > >From source (?) to destination (off-mct2.multicasttech.com)
> > : > > Querying full reverse path... * switching to hop-by-hop:
> > : > > 0 off-mct2.multicasttech.com (63.105.122.133)
> > : > > -1 * * * Timed out receiving responses
> > : > > Perhaps no local router has a route for source, the receiver is
> > not
> > : > > a member of the multicast group or the multicast ttl is too low.
> > : > >
> > : > > multicasttech-1>
> > : > >
> > : > >
> > : > > > We'e seeing some oddities in multicast routing (inbound
> > announcements)
> > : > > > can you send an mtrace?
> > : > > >
> > : > > > Lucy E. Lynch Academic User Services
> > : > > > Computing Center University of Oregon
> > : > > >
> >
> > (541) 346-1774/Cell: 912-7998
> > : > > >
> > : > > > see:
> > : > > >
> > : > > > Mtrace from 128.223.214.24 to 192.35.169.7 via group
> > 224.2.246.13
> > : > > > Querying full reverse path... * switching to hop-by-hop:
> > : > > > 0 ? (192.35.169.7)
> > : > > > -1 ? (192.35.169.1) PIM/BGP4+ thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -2 tor-gigapop.onet.on.ca (206.248.63.1) PIM/BGP4+ thresh^ > > 0
> > : > > > -3 tor-c3-gsr.onet.on.ca (205.211.94.233) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -4 c3-torcor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.210) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -5 c3-ottcor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.150) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -6 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.154) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -7 * * c3-nyccor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.178) PIM thresh^
> > 1
> > RPF
> > : > > > Interface
> > : > > > -8 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.177) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -9 * * c3-nyccor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.178) PIM thresh^
> > 1
> > RPF
> > : > > > Interface
> > : > > > -10 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.177) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -11 * * c3-nyccor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.178) PIM thresh^
> > 1
> > RPF
> > : > > > Interface
> > : > > > -12 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.177) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -13 * * c3-nyccor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.178) PIM thresh^
> > 1
> > RPF
> > : > > > Interface
> > : > > > -14 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.177) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -15 * * c3-nyccor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.178) PIM thresh^
> > 1
> > RPF
> > : > > > Interface
> > : > > > -16 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.177) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -17 * * c3-nyccor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.178) PIM thresh^
> > 1
> > RPF
> > : > > > Interface
> > : > > > -18 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.177) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -19 * * c3-nyccor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.178) PIM thresh^
> > 1
> > RPF
> > : > > > Interface
> > : > > > -20 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.177) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -21 * * c3-nyccor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.178) PIM thresh^
> > 1
> > RPF
> > : > > > Interface
> > : > > > -22 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.177) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -23 Mtrace from 192.35.169.6 to 205.189.32.177 via group
> > 224.2.246.93
> > : > > > Querying full reverse path...
> > : > > > 0 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.177)
> > : > > > -1 c3-moncor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.154) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > Reached RP/Core
> > : > > > -2 c3-ottcor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.153) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > Reached RP/Core
> > : > > > -3 c3-torcor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.149) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > Reached RP/Core
> > : > > > -4 c3-ontgig01.canet3.net (205.189.32.209) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > Reached RP/Core
> > : > > > -5 tor-gigapop.onet.on.ca (205.211.94.234) PIM/BGP4+
> > thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -6 ? (206.248.63.2) PIM thresh^ 0
> > : > > > -7 ? (192.35.169.6)
> > : > > > Round trip time 14 ms; total ttl of 6 required.
> > : > > >
> > : > > > Waiting to accumulate statistics...Results after 9 seconds:
> > : > > >
> > : > > > Source Response Dest Overall Packet Statistics
> > For
> > : > Traffic
> > : > > > From
> > : > > > 192.35.169.6 192.35.169.7 Packet 192.35.169.6 To
> > 224.2.246.93
> > : > > > v __/ rtt 14 ms Rate Lost/Sent = Pct
> > Rate
> > : > > > 192.35.169.1
> > : > > > 206.248.63.2 ?
> > : > > > v ^ ttl 2 142 pps 0/145 = 0%
> > 16
> > pps
> > : > > > 206.248.63.1
> > : > > > 205.211.94.234 tor-gigapop.onet.on.ca
> > : > > > v ^ ttl 3 307 pps -7/145 = -4%
> > 16
> > pps
> > : > > > 205.211.94.233
> > : > > > 205.189.32.209 c3-ontgig01.canet3.net Reached RP/Core
> > : > > > v ^ ttl 4 316 pps 1/152 = 0%
> > 16
> > pps
> > : > > > 205.189.32.210
> > : > > > 205.189.32.149 c3-torcor01.canet3.net Reached RP/Core
> > : > > > v ^ ttl 5 573 pps -1/151 = 0%
> > 16
> > pps
> > : > > > 205.189.32.150
> > : > > > 205.189.32.153 c3-ottcor01.canet3.net Reached RP/Core
> > : > > > v ^ ttl 6 720 pps 0/152 = 0%
> > 16
> > pps
> > : > > > 205.189.32.154 c3-moncor01.canet3.net Reached RP/Core
> > : > > > v \__ ttl 7 1059 pps ?/152
> > 16
> > pps
> > : > > > 205.189.32.177 192.35.169.7
> > : > > > Receiver Query Source
> > : > > >
> > : > > > Mtrace from 192.35.169.6 to 205.189.32.178 via group
> > 224.2.246.93
> > : > > > Querying full reverse path... * switching to hop-by-hop:
> > : > > > 0 c3-nyccor01.canet3.net (205.189.32.178)
> > : > > > -1 * * *
> > : > > > -2 * * *
> > : > > > -3 * * *
> > : > > > -4 * * * ...giving up
> > : > > > Timed out receiving responses
> > : > > >
> > : > > >
> > : > > > On Tue, 11 Jun 2002, Bill Owens wrote:
> > : > > >
> > : > > > > Is anyone else seeing it? We have considerable loss on all
> > four
> > : > > > > streams (video and audio), worst on the MPEG-1 video.
> > : > > > >
> > : > > > > Bill.
> > : > > > >
> > : > > >
> > : > >
> > : >
> > :
> >
> >
>

--
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Joel Jaeggli Academic User Services


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In Dr. Johnson's famous dictionary patriotism is defined as the last
resort of the scoundrel. With all due respect to an enlightened but
inferior lexicographer I beg to submit that it is the first.
-- Ambrose Bierce, "The Devil's Dictionary"



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